Automatic Microsoft Security Updates?
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Weeellll.... Mr. G5… unless you go visit him with a truckload of Mac-versions of all his programs, games, etc, I’ll have to make a simultaneous visit and kick you right in the giblets ;P
a truckload of Mac-versions of all his programs
This is a common argument, btw, that comes from the PC world. Give me a list of software applications that either of you use, and I’ll link you to one of three things.
A) A free program for OS X that does the same thing, possibly even better
B) A cheap (sub $30) program for OS X that does the same thing, probably better
C) A regular price piece of software (costs same as the PC counterpart or similiar Windows ware) for OS X that blows any similar PC programs away
and to be fun, I really should list the
D) programs that will never be on PC and are smokingly fun, useful, professional, and just overall “wow--why can’t all computers do this?”
Well, seeing as how I did just recently purchase a new computer, I don’t forsee any more computer purchases too soon.
Besides, you claim “with the pricepoint of the G5’s"… Two grand for the very base model and that doesn’t even include a monitor?? Much less suffient RAM, only a mediocre graphics card by current standards, and only a modest HD. If I upgrade the base model to something reasonable (17” display, 512MB memory, 160GB hard drive, Radeon 9600), then suddenly I’m paying $2969.
Sorry, Derek… as nice as those G5s look, as good as their specs are, and as cool as OS X may be, there is no way in hell I’m shelling out that sort of money when I could spend far, far less on a comparable “wintel” PC.
Ah, let the PC-Mac wars continue… :thumbsup:
Give me a list of software applications that either of you use, and I’ll link you to one of three things.
The problem here is the fact of having to *replace* what a PC user already has. So now, not only does one have to shell out huge cash for the new (admittedly better rig/OS) but they have to purchase replacements to run on it. Sure, in my case, graphics programs will be far better on Mac, and I’d love to have one for that very reason… but one glaring omission on your software list is the all important plethora of Mac versions of my beloved PC games.
If Mac supported *all* the software I use, I would have made the switch long ago. But as it stands, I can only afford one machine, so it has to run *both* my productive apps *and* my games… work and fun in one package.
When Mac can do that at the same pace as the PC, then I’ll make the switch… even for higher hardware costs.
No, the games are there too. There are a few games that fall a month to three months behind their computer counterpart, but most are simultaneous launches. It’s significant to that id Software and a fair bit of other developers are always showing off their new games in development--on Macs.
And as far as the “replacement cost” angle--I’m looking for my button to play my “wrong” buzzer.
I say that because *any* avid user of a PC spends easily near what a mac costs buying upgrades, tweaks, etc. There was an interesting story on NPR the other day as a matter of fact talking about how much money Americans are spending on “free” music--acquiring hardware, goodies, and tweaks to get things to work the way that they want.
And I seriously doubt any of you are running any expensive commercial software on your PCs. If you are, I bet you didn’t buy it. And even if you are? Six months from now you won’t remember what you paid for anything, you’ll just remember how great your computer is now, how it does what you expect it to do, with fewer steps, less kludge, and without all of the crappy vulnerabilities and virus-a-plenty world of the Windoze fair.
Back to the games topic for a smidge: did you ever stop and think that you’re selling yourself short on both productivity and gaming? Name one other piece of technology that the “does-it-all-in-one-box” version is superior to the units that know what they are supposed to be used for, and do it well. They don’t exist. It would be swell, and maybe 50 years from now some of our technology will handle that properly. TV+VCR. VCR+DVD. The Jet Stream Oven (It’s a microwave! It’s an oven!) The El Camino.
Taking even to a more serious level--you Jose, are an artist. Are your games so important to hold yourself to lower standards for your art and design programs? Can an XBOX or a cheap gaming rig satiate your gaming desire and allow you to get hardware that all other industry professionals choose with good reason?
And you, Mr. Curtis. You already have an XBOX. You have no excuse. 
No excuse? I already gave you my excuse: I don’t feel like paying excessive amounts of money for a Mac when I can get (much less already have) something equivalent for far less.
I don’t have a problem with viruses, vulnerabilities, etc. Why? Because I’m smart and I run anti-virus software, a firewall, etc. I don’t use Outlook or Outlook Express and I’m intelligent enough not to open up email from strangers that contain attachments. Other people are idiots and the more inate security of a non-Windows system would be good for them. Me, though...?
If I outfit a base-model G5 to be similar to my current system it comes out to $3300+ (still has smaller HD, less memory, and a smaller flat panel monitor, mind you). My computer cost maybe $1600. Less than half the cost.
I certainly wouldn’t mind owning a decent Mac (G5). I don’t know that I’d use it as a primary machine, though—certainly not at first, at least. I also, as stated, wouldn’t want to have to pay what’s required to get one. They are, simply put, still far too expensive. Until prices become comparable, Macs will continue to be somewhat of a niche market.
So, if someone wants to give me a G5, I’ll be more than happy to use it. How’s that? :D
No, the games are there too. There are a few games that fall a month to three months behind their computer counterpart, but most are simultaneous launches.
Well… here lies an exlusive truth… exclusive in that it doesn’t really apply well to the games that I *do* play.
Ghost Recon, my one great gaming love, came out on Mac long after the PC version. GR2 is in the works… and I would *hate* to have to wait an additional half a year to get it on Mac.
Raven Shield is a close second… and it’s been ~6 months since it’s release… no sign of a Mac version… and no clear timetable to release one. Galactic Civilizations has no Mac version either… and no clear plans for one.
Since I tend to play very few games, but play them a lot, if I were to convert to Mac, it would matter to me *very much* that they would be supported on a Mac. Certainly that’s the responsibility of the individual game companies… but as long as they feel there isn’t enough market to support Mac versions, they’re not going to publish one, or at least not right away.
Add to that, I’m really big on game mods (both dl’ing/playing and making)… however, they too are geared toward the PC. Although not *exactly* incompatible to run on a PC, this article shows how complex and time consuming a conversion of a Ghost Recon mod is. If I played on a Mac, I’d be incompatible with other online players on PC if I *didn’t* convert each mod. In a lot of cases, 3-6 mods are in use… that’s a lot of extra work.
I say that because *any* avid user of a PC spends easily near what a mac costs buying upgrades, tweaks, etc.
Well… that may be true regarding statistics, but I’m only concerned with what *I* spend on upgrades. My P4 1.6ghz, 256RAM, 40gb hdd, GeForce2, and onboard sound cost me $700. I since doubled the hdd and RAM, and replaced the video and audio cards with high-end gear. All told, I almost doubled my original purchase price. If you figure in my 21” monitor, I’m approaching 2 grand. That’s still very low cost considering roughly eqivalent hardware from a Mac (or at least for my needs).
Six months from now you won’t remember what you paid for anything, you’ll just remember how great your computer is now, how it does what you expect it to do, with fewer steps, less kludge, and without all of the crappy vulnerabilities and virus-a-plenty world of the Windoze fair.
Absolutely true. In fact, if money were no issue, I would have a Mac *just* for productive uses. So no argument here.
Back to the games topic for a smidge: did you ever stop and think that you’re selling yourself short on both productivity and gaming?
I probably am… but I only have so much money to buy both the things I *need* and the things I *want*. So I am forced to try and get the most out of a broad-use system. And quite frankly, I’ve had great success this way.
you Jose, are an artist. Are your games so important to hold yourself to lower standards for your art and design programs?
Well, gaming is my *preferred* form of entertainment. And since I don’t see what I am missing by not being on a higher pro-level rig for work, I can’t say I’m losing out. My machine is outfitted *very well* (IMO) and does *everything* I need from it (save for applications that I simply don’t have… regardless of platform… and again, that’s been solely a matter of affordability).
Can an XBOX or a cheap gaming rig satiate your gaming desire and allow you to get hardware that all other industry professionals choose with good reason?
No.
I hate consoles and most console games. They are inflexible compared to a computer in terms of game interface (at least as far as the games I play). If I played console style games, then yes, that would be fine. But the fact is, my games require a much more broad range of input than a controller can accomplish. Add to that, I *mostly* play online in specific communities. To go to a console would sever those connections.
No, for me, I play specific games that I already have a history with. If I just needed a gaming fix, than just about anything would do.
Bottom line is, if I had the dough, I would own a Mac for work, and a PC for gaming. I would upgrade/replace both as software advanced, and I wouldn’t think twice about it.
But the reality is that I *can’t* afford both. And so I do settle for what meets my needs as best possible. That means the lowest common denominator. And unfortunately, the lowest common denominator is what drives this industry in this regard.
Mac is a better machine. No question. It’s got a better OS. Certainly. But until the rest of the industry treats it with *equal* support to Windows (or perhaps Mac supports PC software), I simply can’t justify giving up a large portion of functionality (and cash) to fill a niche need.
Fine, you guys, I concede. You’re both cheap and like it. I’ll see you Yugo’s on the freeway in my Lotus. We may all end up in the same place, but I’m certain that I’m enjoying my ride a LOT more than you guys are.
You’re both cheap and like it.
Actually, I’m cheap because I have to be. If I could afford to have everything the way I wanted it I’d drive a different Lexus every day of the week.
Fact is, I want a lot… and the Mac only does some of those things that I want better than the PC. But it doesn’t do *everything* that I want. I can only afford one computer. I’m not about to sacrifice certain functionality that I currently enjoy in order to attain some professional ideal state.
but I’m certain that I’m enjoying my ride a LOT more than you guys are
This of course assuming that I enjoy all the same things you do. I’ve already explained what I enjoy on the PC. To give that up to have a Mac would actually *take away* enjoyment.
The way I see it, we’re driving jeeps compared to your Lexus. We can go anywhere, while you’re stuck on paved roads. Granted, those paved roads will be travelled smoother and more luxuriously, but our jeeps will let us go places you can only look at from a scenic rest-stop Sure we might break down a lot, and there are certain creature comforts missing, but in terms of what all we can do, it can’t be beat.
The day a Mac is like a Lexus SUV and can do everything a jeep can do I will happily switch.
"Lexus SUV"… :laugh: Let’s not go off into a conversation about how “luxury” SUVs are neither “sport” nor “utility” vehicles.
Anyway, I think it’s quite clear that we’re all at least relatively satisfied with where we are right now and that we’re just to the point of yanking each others’ chains now.
Damn, why can’t I add a tricked out G5 to my Amazon wishlist? That’s not fair!
Hell, while I’m at it, why can’t I add a Lexus/BMW/whatever to my Amazon Wishlist?? Damn you Amazon.com for not stocking everything on the planet!!
First of all, I said Lotus. 
Secondly, if you’re talking all-terrain, then then you’re in a 1977 CJ-5 and I’m in a 2003 Rubicon. I’m still not buying your “I can’t do what you do on a mac.” You’ve named 3 specific games which belong to a lower-selling genre, and hardly are definitive to make a broadbase comparison to say that Mac is stuck on paved roads. That’s just so horridly untrue, it’s, well, horrid.
Thirdly, I’ve been yanking yer chains since I entered this conversation. Only the hippy Mac users expect to actually be able to convert PC users (of which I was an avid one until 18 months ago--soldering gun, overclocking, and all).
Bloody hippies!! Get the hell out of my entry comments, ya freak!!
God, this is so far removed from the actual entry topic that it’s quite amusing! :beer:
:D :cool: :devil: :o :( 
:blush: :confused: 
irate: :furious: :batman: :beer: :idea: :square: :thumbsup: :thumbsdown: :laugh: lain:
:IE:
Can you feel that? What is that? Oh, I think I’d wemember something like that.
I know, I know, these arguments are old hat, but I will propose them anyway.
On a shallow look, yes PCs are cheaper than Macs, but there are many other considerations:
1) you are probably (forgive me if this is an erroneous assumption) buying a no-name PC or putting one together yourself. If you want to compare prices, make sure you are comparing name brand to name brand. Go configure a Mac and a Dell similarly and the dollar amounts will be closer (probably within $500).
2) The components on a Mac are higher-end and therefore will most likely need less maintenance
3) Macs last longer and therefore don’t need replacing as much
4) Macs require less maintenance overall (patches, upgrades, etc) and therefore the TCO comes down.
5) Mac owners are waaaay cooler than others!! ;=)
In the simple interests of conversation, I give you verification and an interesting slant on points 2-5 of emd‘s list:
Here’s a PBS article with the slam bam boxout quote being: “Macs reduce IT head count while Linux probably increases IT head count, simple as that.”. The rest of the article is interesting too, and isn’t all focused on that one point.
I like Cringely, but I think this time he is talking out of his ass!! From a systems perspective I think Windows would be the most work, followed by Linux and Mac. I am not sure that Macs require less administration in an office situation as the problem that occur will require approximately the same solution (update some toold, recompile some code, etc).
Hey, someone else besides my dorky friends joined the conversation (*cough* argument *cough*)! Glad to see you, Erin!
1) Can’t speak for others, but my new computer is, in fact, a Dell. I’m perfectly capable of building my own and have in the past, but I got a really good deal with discounts on this system.
Of course, I’d also argue that not being able to build your own Mac is a disadvantage…
2) Completely depends. As a whole you’re quite correct, but if you know what you’re doing you can get similarly high-end PC hardware. You just have to know what you’re doing when buying a PC, which isn’t the case with a Mac.
3) Very arguable. I’d say that it’s more common not for stuff to wear out, but rather for PC users to choose to upgrade to better technology. Mac users don’t have all the same freedom in that regard.
4) Quite true.
5) See my comment above about “bloody hippies”. :D
3) Why do PC users upgrade so much? Doesn’t the machine continue to do its intended job? Macs are famous for “Just Working” for a long time, long after their PC counterparts have been upgraded. Gotta be a reason for that!
I am going to move this argument to a different machine (where I have a much better chance of winning :D)! Let’s take a laptop. I dare you to create a PC laptop with feature parity as a Mac TiBook. Built-in WiFi Bluetooth, Superdrive, etc. I bet the numbers come out really close!!
Oh ya, 2) “If you know what you are doing”? How many people do? Macs Just Work. No configuration, no nothing. That is worth some $$$ don’t you think?
For those people that do know what they are doing, the argument doesn’t work that well. But for the average person, the Mac will be less work and accomplish all the same tasks. And the time/cost averaged over the *lifetime* (which on a Mac will be longer) of the machine will be lower.
I have never had to go to a friends house to fix their Mac, but I am constantly fixing PCs. Why?
In overall principle, I agree (and have said so previously) that a Mac is a better machine. However, in my particular case… as in *my needs/wants*… my PC (a Dell with top shelf components) does the job for me better than a similarly equipped Mac. When my needs outweigh my wants (currently an even split), and/or I have enough cash, then I will be in the market for a Mac. In fact, I wish I could have one right now so I can have the best of both worlds. But that’s a want, and my needs (paying rent, insurance, Dell loan, etc) currently outweigh that dream. So it’s PC for me for now. :(
Jose, have you ever thought about trying to get a grant for one? There’s a good possibility that you could buy a G5 for work on a non-payback government grant. They’ve always existed (grants), but there’s a present push to write them by the current administration to help knock the unemployment rate back down.
If nothing else, it would be a complete tax write off, and might make your following year’s return enough to pay for at least 2/3rds of the machine.
Well, I use an iMac, and while not quite as impressive as the G5, It does its job well (thanks to some memory boots and updates, paarticulary the OS X Jaguar), and much cheaper than many PC’s out there. Anyways, for those of you who like PC/Mac humor, I suggest PVP Online:
http://www.pvponline.com/index.php3,
and especially this one (always makes me laugh):
http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=20030601
Anyways, I also have PC for some games and junk, but all else is handled by the almighty Mac. I prefer not to fund and suport Satan and Co. (i.e. Bill Gates)
Uh Hem! Okay back to the subject, no? Windows already can download an update and install it for you, doh!
Ok, while I was kayaking tonight, I really got to thinking about the whole cost for hardware issue, and my suspicions are confirmed.
We need to be comparing apples to, well, Apples. The only PC systems that come close to the hardware, assembly, function, structure, and reliability of Macs come from companies such as AlienWare and one of my favorites, Falcon Northwest.
The Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5, with standard options is $2994. I built a near-identical system at Falcon Northwest. Get this: $5460!
What’s been left out of this conversation on what’s inside the G5s. Sure it’s got only 512mb DDR400 SDRAM--so that’s what I gave the Falcon. Starting with a standard aluminum case, I gave it a single 3GHz processor, which is anyone’s guess, but I’m wagering pretty close to the same CPU power. 160GB serial ATA hard drive, a Superdrive (Pioneer DVD-RW), the ATI Radeon 9600 Pro 8x AGP video card. I had to add a DV FireWire capture card on the Falcon, which btw, still falls short of the 1 FireWire 800, 2 FireWire 400, and 3 USB 2.0 ports that come standard on the Mac. Did I mention that on the Falcon I have to add a front panel case option to have some of the ports up front? Then we add to the Falcon wireless 802.11g ethernet. Add an external Creative Labs Audigy to match the Apple audio with optical digital and analog audio in/out. Add a CPU cooler and a “system quiet package”, which incidentally will never come close to the quiet operating level of a Mac.
Ok, so now that the PC counterpart is $2400 more expensive, you could take that extra cash and buy a 23” HD Apple Cinema display, and still have no monitor for your Falcon.
Now all that’s left to make the systems match is to find and purchase software that is comparable to Apple’s standard set: iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD, QuickBooks, FAXstf, Art Directors Toolkit, Microsoft Office v.X Test Drive, GraphicConverter, QuickTime, iChat, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, iCal, iSync, DVD Player, Mail, and Apple Developer Tools.
What?? Developer Tools? You mean Apple freely gives access to it’s core libraries to let people mess with their system and create new apps? Some of those programs, btw, there simply are no PC equivelants, and many of them that have similarities cost $100 each, minimum.
Don’t forget: print to PDF from any application, natively.
You guys had me convinced for a bit--and I think I have been overall up until tonight--that PCs were “more bang for the buck.” The bottom line is: Apple just doesn’t offer garage PCs. Yes, your inexpensive Dell’s and home-mades might do very nicely, but even on their own turf--getting a PC that it would even be fair to compare to an Apple costs a lot more money. And it would still run Windows.
And I heard on CNN tonight (in one of the MANY waiting rooms) that Microsoft is trying to tell users that they aren’t doing enough to protect their machines. Yeah, for instance, they’re running Windows, using Outlook Express, trusting Windows updates, etc. They really should be more proactive and not do any of those things. Morons.
As for you, Mr. Curtis: with the pricepoint of the G5’s, if you buy or upgrade your PC in the next year, I’ll drive down there and punch you right in the mouth.
By Derek Jones on August 19, 2003 at 10:11pm link